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10/30/2009 7:21:23 AM
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Jeffhaas
Posts 1939
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I figure I've been working on this novel off and on for ten years now. I'm either going to kill it, or it's going to kill me.
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"A desk is a dangerous place from which to watch the world."
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10/30/2009 10:17:43 AM
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Bill Moonroe
Posts 3308
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Jeff, you are a prime candidate for Steven Barnes' Lifewriting course. He deals quite a bit with failure from the perspective that very few people get good at anything without many, many failures. Who learns to ride a bicycle on the first attempt? Why would writing a novel be different? His wife, Tananarive Due, says that the best advice she ever got from a writing teacher was to paper her office with rejection slips. The interesting thing about the Lifewriting system is that Barnes digs into the Hero's Journey as a story structure that's come about because it's the pattern of human life. He also applies it to the success path as a writer.
One of my favorite Barnes-isms is "Perfectionism is procrastination masquerading as quality control".
So. Jeff. What's stopped you from finishing this novel? Can you get closure on it by taking whereever it's at now and tacking on the line, "And then a six-foot ferret drove up and shot everyone. THE END"?
Another idea might be to deliberately set this novel aside, and set a yearlong goal of writing a short story a week. Writing X number of words in a short story is a different experience than the same number of words in a novel; getting to "The End" is a powerful experience. Once you've done that a lot of times, then maybe the novel will just about write itself.
The only failure to bemoan is the failure to start to use everything you have while you can.
edited by Bill Moonroe on 10/30/2009
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10/30/2009 11:14:55 AM
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Byron Bailey
Posts 2413
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Since my own computer died a little over three years ago and I found myself a computer refugee, huddled around other people's computers when they deign, I haven't been able to finish writing a story.
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Yes, I do weigh 800 pounds, but I'm not a gorilla. I'm just a grossly obese bonobo. Really.
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10/30/2009 11:18:27 AM
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Jeffhaas
Posts 1939
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If I weren't convinced that this is the novel I'm mean to write, I would've given up on it long ago. In fact, I've taken breaks to write short stories -- and even start other novels -- but I keep coming back to this one. I've pretty much come to conclusion that I'm not a prolific writer, and I'd much rather write one novel that I'm proud of then ten that are mere entertainments. I suppose the argument could be made that I should write several novels in order to get better at novel-writing, but there's something in me that wants to get it right the first (and perhaps the only) time. I'm not looking to make a living at novel-writing even if that were remotely possible, but I would like to express myself effectively through this novel and perhaps a few others, and communicate those ideas and feelings to others.
edited by Jeffhaas on 10/30/2009
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"A desk is a dangerous place from which to watch the world."
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10/30/2009 12:39:32 PM
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Kevin C.
Posts 1088
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Should we all sing a round of Gloom, Despair, and Agony on Me? 
Don't despair. You're published. You know you can make a sale. That's more than most hopefuls will ever know. You know you can write stuff other than the novel that calls you back. So, why not keep this novel as a hobby and write something else for the market?
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10/30/2009 12:40:51 PM
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Kevin C.
Posts 1088
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Byron Bailey wrote:
Since my own computer died a little over three years ago and I found myself a computer refugee, huddled around other people's computers when they deign, I haven't been able to finish writing a story.
Don't let that stop you. Tolstoy didn't have a computer.
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10/30/2009 12:56:36 PM
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Jeffhaas
Posts 1939
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You're published.
Actually, that's one of the events informing my attitude. I just can't see myself pumping out story after story and novel after novel in search of fleeting fame and fortune. IOW, what's it all about, Alfie? To me, it's about writing something that's good and potentially lasting. I have ten short story first drafts that I blasted out this year, so I'm also planning to revisit them, choose the best among them, and do some rewrites. But, frankly, from a commercial standpoint the only reason to write short stories is to advertise a novel...
...unless the ebook phenomenon brings the short story back to the forefront.
edited by Jeffhaas on 10/30/2009
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"A desk is a dangerous place from which to watch the world."
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10/30/2009 1:47:06 PM
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Captain Mitty
Posts 269
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Byron Bailey wrote:
Since my own computer died a little over three years ago and I found myself a computer refugee, huddled around other people's computers when they deign, I haven't been able to finish writing a story.
Check out the manuscript for the Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson.
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Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.-C.S. Lewis
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10/30/2009 1:51:42 PM
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Lukas Jackson
Posts 525
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For some reason I thought Stephenson would be more high-tech than that..
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http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com
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10/30/2009 1:59:49 PM
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Byron Bailey
Posts 2413
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Don't let that stop you. Tolstoy didn't have a computer.
My entire writinng process has evolved around having a computer. Without a computer for me, writing is pulling teeth. With my own computer, it's probably the funnest, most liberating computer game imaginable, a game that never gets old because each story is a different game. I've been trying to pull teeth for the last three years using every single motivational technique from NLP to affirmations I'm aware of and reached the conclusion that if this is the way I have to write, I'm better off not writing. Life is too short.
On the plus side, not writing has freed up time that I'm now devoting to studying the game of chess. I actually have my own chess board which helps a lot.
edited by Byron Bailey on 10/30/2009
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Yes, I do weigh 800 pounds, but I'm not a gorilla. I'm just a grossly obese bonobo. Really.
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10/30/2009 2:39:47 PM
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Captain Mitty
Posts 269
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Lukas Jackson wrote:
For some reason I thought Stephenson would be more high-tech than that..
It is the Baroque Cycle after all.
However, I only told half the story. He scans it in and uses character recognition software to convert it into and actual book. I think he actually wrote some of the code used in the process.
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Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.-C.S. Lewis
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10/30/2009 2:41:38 PM
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Lukas Jackson
Posts 525
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Captain Mitty wrote:
Lukas Jackson wrote: For some reason I thought Stephenson would be more high-tech than that.. It is the Baroque Cycle after all. However, I only told half the story. He scans it in and uses character recognition software to convert it into and actual book. I think he actually wrote some of the code used in the process.
Are you serious? That sounds insanely more difficult than it needs to be! I have enough difficulty running OCR on text PDFs, let alone scribbled handwriting...!
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http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com
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11/1/2009 2:32:19 AM
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Thomas R
Posts 2725
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My thesis which I've worked on forever and never finished.
Also I spent a year writing and rewriting a story for a defunct webzine called "Would That it Were." I thought I'd finally sold him on it, but nope. As the story was rather eccentric, ie it was about the obscure historical things I find interesting and written in a faux-antique style, I literally couldn't even give it away after all that work.
edited by Thomas R on 11/1/2009
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To God be humble, to thy friend be kind, and with thy neighbors gladly lend and borrow His chance is tonight it might be thine tomorrow - William Dunbar
I don't lend money to eight-year-olds, at least not anymore. And if you see Billy tell him I'm looking for him - Coach McGuirk
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11/3/2009 5:36:12 PM
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Matt Hughes
Posts 270
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There are no failures, only successes that have yet to happen. I refer you to the link below.
Matt Hughes
http://www.archonate.com/no-surrender
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11/3/2009 11:13:48 PM
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Byron Bailey
Posts 2413
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Sounds like a heart attack to me.
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Yes, I do weigh 800 pounds, but I'm not a gorilla. I'm just a grossly obese bonobo. Really.
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11/4/2009 10:52:34 AM
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Bill Moonroe
Posts 3308
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Psst... Matt, great speech... I just posted a link to it from the NaNoWriMo forum... but I think I get the picture about this thread... it's an illustration of something I've read about in Julia Cameron's book, "The Artist's Way". There are actually payoffs in being a blocked artist, and this thread seems to be a celebration of that mindset. I don't want to actually use the word, "Martyr", but perhaps fisher of sympathy might come close. Encouragement is just pissing on the parade.
I mean, saying that I only want to write one meaningful book seems to me a bit like Lance Armstrong saying he'd only want to learn how to ride a bike while racing in the Tour de France. Sure, that's the big time, but to get there, there's learning to ride with the training wheels, then take off the training wheels, having close encounters with opening car doors and boorish drivers with whom you share the road. There's learning how to fix a flat tire yourself without having to wait for support, there's learning how to grease the chain yourself, there's learning how to cope with other racers passing you, learning to get up and keep riding with an asphalt tattoo on your knees or palms. Do all of that, and you'll be in a much better spot to appreciate being cheered or booed at the Tour de France, and the joy of just finishing the race, the exhaltation of actually winning the race, the lavish enjoyment of being bestowed the 70 Virgins Award at the banquet... the guy who decides that he's ridden around the block a couple of times and is thus ready for the Big One is more likely to find satisfaction in saying, "I've started the Tour de France so many times. No one ever actually finishes, you know. Except the sell-outs."
edited by Bill Moonroe on 11/4/2009
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11/4/2009 12:01:08 PM
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Byron Bailey
Posts 2413
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Psst... Matt, great speech... I just posted a link to it from the NaNoWriMo forum... but I think I get the picture about this thread... it's an illustration of something I've read about in Julia Cameron's book, "The Artist's Way". There are actually payoffs in being a blocked artist, and this thread seems to be a celebration of that mindset. I don't want to actually use the word, "Martyr", but perhaps fisher of sympathy might come close. Encouragement is just pissing on the parade.
I'm not blocked. I'm neutered. I have dozens, even hundreds of stories I could write and at least twenty different novels I wanted to write, most of them tending to be fantasy or fantasy satire of some sort, but at least three of them science fiction. After three years of no computer with seven people all promising me a hand-me-down computer but no one ever actually making good on that promise, though, my opinion of humanity is so unbelievably low that even if I got a computer now, I'm not sure I would write. If I have anything to offer, society isn't deserving of me. And if I don't have anything to offer, who cares if I write anyway?
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Yes, I do weigh 800 pounds, but I'm not a gorilla. I'm just a grossly obese bonobo. Really.
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11/4/2009 1:44:52 PM
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Jeffhaas
Posts 1939
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There are no failures, only successes that have yet to happen. I refer you to the link below.
Matt, while I appreciate the inspirational nature of your speech, I feel that it's more about publishing than writing. Unfortunately, there are many writers today with more ambition than talent, and one wishes sometimes that they would try a little less.
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"A desk is a dangerous place from which to watch the world."
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11/4/2009 1:45:36 PM
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alastair_mayer
Posts 400
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Bill Moonroe wrote:
One of my favorite Barnes-isms is "Perfectionism is procrastination masquerading as quality control".
I so need to print that out, frame it, and put it up where I (and a few others in my family) can see it.
Just as soon as I get the right paper to print it on and an appropriate frame.... 
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- Alastair
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11/4/2009 2:03:49 PM
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alastair_mayer
Posts 400
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Writing without the intent to publish is just a form of mental masturbation. Not that there's anything wrong with that -- it can be a lot of fun and it doesn't really hurt anyone until it starts taking time away from what needs doing -- but in that case it doesn't matter whether you finish or not, or how "good" in some objective sense it is, because you're only doing it to please yourself. Although it's probably not something to talk about in polite company.
When do you quit if you're writing to publish? Here's the link: how-do-you-know-when-to-quit. And here's a quote from that:
"Toni McGee Causey" wrote:
At our PASIC conference, Christie [Craig] was to give the very last session on the second day, and her talk was going to be on, “How to Know When To Quit.” I saw a roll-on (carry-on sized) piece of luggage on the floor at her feet, and I was curious. While she introduced her subject, she opened the suitcase at her feet and pulled out a rather large UPS-type envelope. Not the normal letter-sized—the next size up. She started explaining how she became a writer, and what she’d gone through to get to where she is now—and she explained she’d been dyslexic, and how every single solitary step had been a challenge. She talked about how writing and telling stories was her dream, and she had to teach herself how to do everything, every single step of the way. It was hard—and I have a son and husband with dyslexia—I know a little bit about what she went through.
Then Christie asked, “When do you quit? Is it after the first fifty rejections?” and she pulled a stack of papers from that UPS envelope and let them rain down around her feet. “Or the next fifty?” and she pulled another stack out and let those rain down. I could see the letterhead of the pages as they fell, and I thought my throat would close up on her behalf. “Or how about the next hundred?” she asked, and pulled another wad of pages out and let those rain down. “Three hundred? Is that when you quit?” And she emptied that envelope and reached into the suitcase and pulled out another one, and asked, “Or is it the first 500? Do you quit then?” Those papers kept raining down, “Or how about the next 500?” and more envelopes, more pages. “How about a 1000? Is that when you stop?” And at this point, I couldn’t have spoken if someone had held a gun on me, I was so choked up. “Or how about the second thousand?” More pages. “Or three? Is three thousand the point where you stop?”
Of course that's not for everybody. As Causey goes on to write: "So, when do you quit? You quit when you want something else, more. You quit when you have another dream that means more to you." Nothing wrong with that either (as long as no promises to others are broken).
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- Alastair
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