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9/20/2008 11:32:53 AM
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Thomas R
Posts 3572
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Ta-Nehisi Coates on the lack of good movies about female superheroes (I should warn you the comments section occasionally gets pro-Obama political, but I don't want this thread to have anything to do with politics)
I'm not sure I agree with him a 100%, but I can't think of a good "female superhero" movie. There are some good female-oriented action movies, but none of them are comic-book or superhero related. Is there a reason for this? Is there an exception I'm missing?
edited by Thomas R on 9/20/2008
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"Not for a moment, beautiful aged Walt Whitman, have I failed to see your beard full of butterflies." Federico Garcia Lorca
"I was going down a long hallway, and at the end of it there was a bright light a kind man with a beard reaching his hand out to me, beckoning me, and he looked at me as I got closer.. and said: 'Hey buddy, can you spare some change? I want a cup of coffee!'" Tom Servo
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9/20/2008 12:38:15 PM
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Byron Bailey
Posts 3582
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Women make horrible super heroes. It's just a fact of life. If women get super powers, they inevitably abuse them. In fact, we went through a plague of "female super heroes" in the past and barely survived. According to the Malleus Malificarum written during that horrible time:
All wickedness is but little to the wickedness of a woman.... What else is a woman but a foe to friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, a domestic danger, a delectable detriment, an evil of nature, painted in fair colours.... The word woman is used to mean the lust of the flesh, as it is said: I have found a woman more bitter than death, and a good woman more subject to carnal lusts.... There are more superstitious women found than men. And the first is, that they are more credulous; and since the the chief aim of the devil is to corrupt faith, therefore he attacks them [than men].... Women are naturaly more impressionable, and more ready to receive the influence of a disembodied spirit.... They have slippery tongues, and are able to conceal from their fellow-women those things by which evil arts they know....they are feebler both in mind and body.... Women are intellectually like children.... She is more carnal than a man as is clear from her many carnal abominations.... She is an imperfect animal, she always deceives.... And indeed, just as through the first defect in their intelligence they are more prone to abjure the faith; so through their second defect of inordinate affections and passions they search for, brood over, and inflict various vengeances, either by witchcraft, or by some other means. Wherefore it is no wonder that so great a number of witches exist in this sex. (Quoted in The Anthropology of Religion, Magic, and Witchcraft by Rebecca L. Stein and Philip L. Stein).
Women are hardly the stuff to build a decent super hero around. Thousands of bonfires can't be wrong, can they?
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Yeah, I weigh 800 pounds. All muscle. Really. Well, mostly muscle. Well, the doctor said that I had muscles -- hundreds of them.
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9/20/2008 2:12:24 PM
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Bill Moonroe
Posts 4528
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I guess "The Devil Wears Prada" wouldn't count.
It appears that Joss Wheddon has gotten out of the Wonder Woman project; a pity, that would have been interesting.
I haven't seen "Elektra" but have heard that what should have been a "gimme" got messed up big time.
The movie superhero genre seems to be reaching for new heights and mostly hitting their marks, so it's a matter of time.
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"A thagizer? What's that do? Hey, what's this button for? Uh-oh. Sorry about that, man. It'll grow back, right?"
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9/20/2008 5:45:39 PM
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Marian
Posts 3065
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The Fantastic Four
Lara Croft, Tomb Raider (does she count as a superhero)
Do Alien and Aliens count?
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"Know the truth and the truth shall make you odd."
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9/20/2008 9:17:23 PM
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Thomas R
Posts 3572
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Marian wrote:
Lara Croft, Tomb Raider (does she count as a superhero)
I considered her. Although not comic-book Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is largely about two women who are amazing fighters and can, essentially, fly or glide anyway.
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"Not for a moment, beautiful aged Walt Whitman, have I failed to see your beard full of butterflies." Federico Garcia Lorca
"I was going down a long hallway, and at the end of it there was a bright light a kind man with a beard reaching his hand out to me, beckoning me, and he looked at me as I got closer.. and said: 'Hey buddy, can you spare some change? I want a cup of coffee!'" Tom Servo
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9/22/2008 4:54:24 PM
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RobinA
Posts 77
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Assuming for the moment that "superhero" means "costumed crusader", women have fared badly in the genre. At least in the US. Off the top of my head, Supergirl, Elektra, Catwoman, Sue Storm in both awful Fantastic Four movies.
There's a great Asian movie with a trio of three superheroic women, called unimaginitively enough, The Heroic Trio. Despite the awful title, it's a great movie.
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9/22/2008 6:00:06 PM
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John Thiel
Posts 1980
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No female superheroes can be born? Bah, I'll create a female superhero right here and now--Bethesda Ficula. That's just offhand, on the spur of the moment. There's just the name and the audience comes up with her superhero qualities like they were looking at an archetype. She's a screen filler and you can cast any of your favorite ladies of scifi as you imagine her fantastic exploits in space. Her name is the name of the first superheroine movie she is in.
Stan Lee never bothered to promote a lady superhero. He had a lot to work with, from Fat Mama on, but he let his whole project lapse. He even gave his male winner, Feedback, the shaft. There's no female superheroes because there are no longer people interested in creating them.
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Surprising Stories has a slush pile.
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9/22/2008 6:37:19 PM
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alastair_mayer
Posts 465
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Wonder Woman had a TV series, but I can't think of much in the way of well done movie superheroines. Elastagirl? (The Incredibles).
There have been some good female action heroes - Angelina Jolie has played a few (the Lara Croft movies, Mr & Mrs Smith, as has Gina Davis (Cutthroat Island, The Long Kiss Goodnight). Possibly even Uma Thurman (Kill Bill, My Super Ex-Girlfriend) except that the characters she plays in those are a bit psychotic.
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- Alastair
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9/22/2008 7:36:33 PM
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gdozois
Posts 4314
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They're TV shows, but everybody is forgetting BUFFY, THE VAMPIRE SLAYER and XENA, WARRIOR PRINCESS, and other shows that I once referred to as "beautiful women kick male butt" shows. There seems to be a basic urge that's satisfied by watching a sexy woman beating the crap out of big hulking men, although I think it's possible that women and men like these shows for different reasons. (ALIAS would fit in here too, I suppose, although I didn't often watch it. The prototype here seems to be Mrs. Peel from THE AVENGERS.)
With that as a given, I'm surprised there haven't been more movies about female superheroes, although there are certainly female superheroes who play a prominent role in superhero-team movies such as THE X-MEN, THE INCREDIBLES, and THE FANTASTIC FOUR (although the Invisible Girl doesn't play as big a role in the fighting as the women in the other two teams do). Maybe it's because CATWOMAN was a box-office disaster; I suspect that that's why we haven't seen BATGIRL or WONDER WOMAN yet. (Always surprised me that CATWOMAN bombed, although it was a terrible movie; you'd think there were enough young men who'd pay to see Hallie Berry in a skintight leather catsuit that it would have been a success, no matter how much the movie itself sucked). The fact that THE SIX-MILLION DOLLAR WOMAN recently dogged may have something to do with the derth of female superhero movies too.
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9/22/2008 11:27:32 PM
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Byron Bailey
Posts 3582
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Anne Bonny and Mary Reed disguised themselves as men and plundered the high seas. James Tiptree, Jr. wrote with a superhero's power and then her secret identity was found out. I have to wonder how many superheroes, even those whose exploits have been made into movies, might be women who look at the costumes superheroines are supposed to wear and say, "I'm not going to demean myself by wearing a negligee in public. Pajamas are far more comfortable anyway."
If Anne Bonny and Mary Reed, each disguised as men, could find each other on the vast expanse of the high seas, how many of our most cherished superheroes might just be women? Can one look through a superhero's disguise and see the woman beneath? Perhaps or perhaps not. These superheroes with their need to conceal their identities have awfuly good disguises. Still, there has to be clues, and here's two of them. If the superhero feels the need to state the obvious by having the word "man" in his superhero name, she may just by hiding something. Second, if a superhero wears a cape, he may just be a she. Women love their accessories. If the superhero has the word "man" in his superhero name and sports a cape, it's a virtual certainty that the superhero is a woman.
Don't worry Ms. Batman and Ms. Superman. Your secret is safe with me.
edited by Byron Bailey on 9/22/2008
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Yeah, I weigh 800 pounds. All muscle. Really. Well, mostly muscle. Well, the doctor said that I had muscles -- hundreds of them.
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9/23/2008 5:31:11 AM
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Marian
Posts 3065
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And Robin is a girl's name. So Batman and Robin are Big Sister/Little Sister?
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"Know the truth and the truth shall make you odd."
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9/23/2008 5:35:28 AM
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Thomas R
Posts 3572
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It seems like one of the Robins actually was a girl, but I could be mistaken. (I'm not a comic-book guy, I just know there's been several Robins. It seems like many of them died or went insane, Batman is generally agreed to be quite poor at obeying child-labor laws)
I think Robin is gender-neutral, at least I know of male authors named Robin.
edited by Thomas R on 9/23/2008
--
"Not for a moment, beautiful aged Walt Whitman, have I failed to see your beard full of butterflies." Federico Garcia Lorca
"I was going down a long hallway, and at the end of it there was a bright light a kind man with a beard reaching his hand out to me, beckoning me, and he looked at me as I got closer.. and said: 'Hey buddy, can you spare some change? I want a cup of coffee!'" Tom Servo
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9/23/2008 9:35:42 AM
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Byron Bailey
Posts 3582
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Robin is invariably a confused soul who hasn't yet figured out what he or she is. All that Robin knows is that he/she likes wearing panties in public and Ms. Batman doesn't seem to mind. For that, Robin loves Ms. Batman although he's not sure if that love is Platonic or not. He/she also loves Ms. Batman for the cute accessories, the belt and the cape and such, that she provides.
edited by Byron Bailey on 9/23/2008
--
Yeah, I weigh 800 pounds. All muscle. Really. Well, mostly muscle. Well, the doctor said that I had muscles -- hundreds of them.
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9/23/2008 9:43:34 AM
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John Thiel
Posts 1980
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Robin Hood is the first Robin known historically. He'd scoff at the idea that his name was a woman's name.
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Surprising Stories has a slush pile.
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9/24/2008 5:05:52 PM
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Bill Moonroe
Posts 4528
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I know superhero movies have been around for a long time, but with Marvel getting directly involved, starting their own studio, I think decent superheroine films will be made. Not to take this political, but let's face it, how many of the people complaining about the lack of superheroine movies will enjoy seeing comic book females on the big screen as they're depicted in the comics?
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"A thagizer? What's that do? Hey, what's this button for? Uh-oh. Sorry about that, man. It'll grow back, right?"
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9/24/2008 8:41:47 PM
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Thomas R
Posts 3572
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I almost wonder if it'd be easier to do in animation. In live-action it sometimes devolves into "look 'fill-in-the-blank sexy actress' in a form-fitting get-up." Animation would avoid that in a way.
Or possibly intentionally have a serious comic-book type live-action heroine, but have her played by someone not-so known for looks. Maybe Camryn Manheim or Edie Falco as superheroines. (Okay possibly they're too old and I'm not saying they're unattractive just that their looks aren't their "hook.")
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"Not for a moment, beautiful aged Walt Whitman, have I failed to see your beard full of butterflies." Federico Garcia Lorca
"I was going down a long hallway, and at the end of it there was a bright light a kind man with a beard reaching his hand out to me, beckoning me, and he looked at me as I got closer.. and said: 'Hey buddy, can you spare some change? I want a cup of coffee!'" Tom Servo
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9/25/2008 9:48:47 AM
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Bill Moonroe
Posts 4528
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Have you ever seen "The Thundercats"? Cheetarah does a better job of defying gravity than any live-action.
On one hand, it's not as though Superman and Spider-man don't wear somewhat form-fitting outfits that "don't get in the way". On the other hand, I was looking at a fairly new Fantastic Four graphic novel, and though 3 of the 4 wear the same basic costume, it wasn't Reed Richards who wasn't shown from behind not wearing any underwear, and it wasn't the Thing turned to profile to show off the littler Thing. I suspect they'd not have been so eager to battle a bunch of guys in halter tops and snakeskin legs... Richards seemed to enjoy that half-nelson a little too much. If anything, a superheroine movie would be more of the same. Just wait until Hannah Montana gets a little older, and something radioactive will bite her.
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"A thagizer? What's that do? Hey, what's this button for? Uh-oh. Sorry about that, man. It'll grow back, right?"
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9/25/2008 10:42:51 AM
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John Thiel
Posts 1980
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Superheroines should in fact be sexy--so how about using the sexy ones while they've still got 'em? Sexyness is being sapped out of the race of actresses by genetics. How about making superheroines out of Billie and Lexa before it's too late and they've aged out of their natural sexiness? (It may be too late already! Have you seen a race-against-time where a super-aging process is involved?) And I think Trance could be abstracted intact out of ANDROMEDA as an individual superheroine.
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Surprising Stories has a slush pile.
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9/25/2008 11:11:17 AM
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gdozois
Posts 4314
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Except perhaps in a movie satirizing superhero movies, I don't think you're ever going to see a movie with an UGLY superheroine, or even a plain one. Beauty, or at least sexiness, is part of the package. Just like you're never going to see a superhero who isn't well-muscled and fit-looking (except in the above satirical movie)--even if he looks old and scrawny or big and fat in the rest of the movie, before the action starts, he's going to TURN INTO somebody big and musclular. I suspect if they did have an ugly superheroine, that before the action started, she would TURN INTO somebody sexy in a skin-tight suit. This strikes to the very roots of the whole superhero industry, whose basis is in wish-fullfillment fantasy.
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9/25/2008 12:30:05 PM
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RobinA
Posts 77
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Marian wrote:
And Robin is a girl's name.
Not in my case. Usually, the first thing one notices about me is my boy-ness.
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